Podcast: CEO Maurice Smith on the Value of Legacy Planning

C.U. on the Show Podcast

“How Executive Legacy Planning Can Help Your Credit Union Today” 

Doug English: Hello, credit union executives. Welcome to C.U. On the Show, where we give you up-to-date information on how you can reduce risk, keep key talent, and take a strategic approach to your personal financial wellness, hosted by me, Doug English, a certified financial planner, and former credit union insider with ACT Advisors.

My guest on today’s podcast is Maurice Smith. Maurice is the long-time CEO at Local Government Federal Credit Union in Raleigh, North Carolina. He is a recipient of the 2020 Herb Wegner Memorial Award for Outstanding Individual Achievement presented by the National Credit Union Foundation.

In today’s episode, we have returning guests Anne Sample and Patricia Hamm from Navigate Forward, and what we talk about, together with Maurice, is legacy planning and how the process of discovering what you want to do next can bring unexpected value to your current role as a leader, to your team, and to your organization.

Welcome back, Anne and Patty, to the show, and welcome to C.U. on the Show. Maurice, we’re delighted to have you with us today.

Maurice Smith: Well, thank you, Doug. Delighted to be here as well.

Doug English: I’ve known Maurice for some time and am really excited to try to learn from him and help the leaders of the credit union movement from his great example of how credit union leaders might think about the next stage of life, the stage when you’re not running a credit union, maybe you’re still doing some very important and interesting things.

So, first, Maurice, I know you’re well known in the movement, but if you would, just tell us a little bit about how you got started working in credit unions and where you are today.

Maurice Smith: Well, thank you, Doug, and thank you for this opportunity to talk a little bit about this journey that I’m on. I’m delighted to be here with Patty and Anne as well, who have been sort of my sage advisors on this course that I’ve been pursuing.

Doug, my actual credit union career began when I was age 12 years old, and that’s how I knew that this would be my life’s work. So I’ll give you the CliffsNote version of it. At age 12, standing in a potato field on a small family farm with my father, he asked me to determine then what would be my life work, my career. Short story to that is I chose to go into banking as a service and as a career because he impressed upon me the importance of banking, how it affects economies, community, people’s livability, and so I decided that would be my career going forward.

I made out better, Doug. I actually worked in the credit union business for the last 43 years. And I started out as a loan officer, I’ve worked as a branch manager, I’ve been in charge of marketing and training and done a number of different things in the organization, and now I find myself for the last 22 years having been the CEO of this organization. So I love the journey that I’ve been on. I really appreciate the services that we provide to our members, and I have this deep respect for cooperative finance and how the financial industry makes a difference in the lives of so many people. So 43 years has been a long time, but I feel like I’m still just getting started because there’s so many things to learn. So I appreciate your question in that regard.

Doug English: Well, I have more. Our listeners know from the previous recording we did with Anne and Patty we’re talking about board readiness. The idea is that leaders of the credit union movement may want to be engaged in some additional activities of value outside of the credit union movement once they retire. And I’m delighted you have had a personal experience with working with Anne and Patty and identifying your path toward working with boards. Can you tell us a little bit about like where did that originate from, what got you interested in doing this, and then how did you decide to engage a consultant to help you do this? And tell us a little bit about the process.

Maurice Smith: Very good, Doug. So my interest in board service really begins with the foundation that corporations, organizations that are entities in our society, actually have a responsibility to helping our communities thrive. Here’s what I mean by that. The invention of this artificial entity, corporations, really began in the 1800s, and the notion is that you could have a group of individuals who would come together, who would assemble their resources, their skills and their talent for the purposes of some endeavor actually drives our economy, helps improve our employment for our communities, it brings products and services to the marketplace. So my interest in corporate world and corporate life has been driven from that point forward.

So as we think fast-forward here today, in the last 43 years I’ve spent in credit unions, I’ve learned from the corporation side of credit unions and cooperative finance that it makes a difference when you aggregate the talents and the services and the resources of a community. So as I’m approaching the end of my career, I thought how might I take what I have learned through my career and my philosophy about how corporations can make a difference in improving people’s lives, and how might I then extend that influence into other areas? So while I’m hanging up my business cards, if you will, from the credit union side of things, I thought that this will be a great opportunity for me to share with other corporations what I have learned in the credit union space.

So I engaged Navigate Forward to help me think about this. This is a new role, this is a new season for me, and I wanted to figure out how do I present myself to a corporation or to another organization, what values do I bring to the table, but also, Doug, this is a two-way street, what might I learn from my exposure in perhaps even other industries. So the coaching that I have been receiving from Navigate Forward, Patty in particular, has been therapeutic at times and exploratory at times. It’s been very resourceful and informative to me, shared with me the things about myself that I had not even fully considered myself as to how should I reengineer my life and my interests going forward.

Doug English: We’re digging into some of that, Maurice. I want to hear some more about that.

Anne Sample: And, Maurice, I think the fun part of the—we started our conversations is that you knew board work was out there. And I think that’s how we first connected.

Maurice Smith: Yes.

Anne Sample: But it was also really fun to step back and say, “There’s a big change coming for you.” And I just remember us saying, “It’s not just boards that we need to talk about,” because 43 years is a long time, and thinking about what’s next is a big question. So I’m just pleased we’ve been able to join you on that part of the journey and look broadly at the idea of legacy planning and helping you think about what’s next.

Maurice Smith: Absolutely. Anne, that’s the part that I had not fully considered. You spend so much time working, as many of us do, and we have our nose to the grindstone. We’re just getting our day-to-day tasks done. And you wake up one day, and you realize, “Wait a minute. This season is closing.” Then I think about what does the future look like. Well, I hadn’t thought much about the future. I was thinking about today and the present time and what I had to get done. And so this has been really revealing to me to go through the process with Navigate Forward to understand, okay, Maurice, you’re becoming a different person now, and there’s different ways that I can contribute to society. And how I navigate this transition has an impact on my credit union, on my family, but also on me that I hadn’t really quite fully realized. So maybe I should be sending Patty some money for therapeutic sessions or something. I probably felt like a patient at some point.

Patty Hamm: I’ve heard that before, Maurice.

Maurice Smith: I understand.

Doug English: All right. So before we get into some of the tactical specifics, let’s just kind of look back and pretend you could talk to Maurice a year or two or five years ago. When would you have started this process? Now that you’ve kind of gone through it and know where you are today, what’s the right time for a CEO to start the process?

Maurice Smith: Well, it’s too short of a time, I think, from my standpoint when I began maybe about 18 months out before retirement, because I thought it was really basically just reshaping a resume and then putting myself out and shopping my wares around to other corporations. But it’s much deeper than that. I would have started this process three or four, maybe five years sooner to understand more about who I am and what I bring to an organization.

Doug, it isn’t also just about me, because having more advance understanding and preparation would have been beneficial to my credit union as well. I believe some of the skills and things I’ve learned here in the last few months would have made me a better CEO in this current season, and therein would have been a return on investment for my credit union. That I did not know and had not seen. So my younger self would have seized on an opportunity like this some time ago to help ease me into the season that I’m heading into.

Doug English: That’s a huge takeaway, Maurice. So you think that had you started this process optimally five years ago, that you would have been even more effective as a CEO. Any examples of ways that you identified that you might have been even more effective?

Maurice Smith: Absolutely. Doug, you might find this shocking, but I have made mistakes in my career over the last decade.

Doug English: Say it’s not true. Say it’s not true, Maurice.

Maurice Smith: I know. I’ve taken you by surprise. Every mistake that I have made, Doug, every mistake that we have made as an organization, I go back and do a postmortem on it and try to figure out what went wrong. And it usually did not arise during the resource allocations part, it didn’t arise during the market identification part of it, or even during the execution. Every mistake that we’ve ever made has been an issue-spotting mistake. There was a group of us sitting around in a boardroom, and we had this brainstorm of an idea to launch a product or service or go to market with something, and we realized later when we blundered what happened, whether it wasn’t enough diversity of thought, enough individuals in the room to help us spot the issues before we launched out.

So as I think about my own personal career, mistakes that I have made over the years, if I had the right kind of coaching around me before we made certain decisions, then that would have helped me spot the issues ahead of time. My conversations with Navigate Forward has been an issue-spotting exercise for me. What are the deficiencies in my own qualifications that I should work on? How might I present myself to any number of audiences? How could I be more effective in making decisions and charting out a future? Those are the kind of issue‑spotting mistakes that we have made as an institution in the past that I believe had I made myself a better performer through this kind of insight, that would have helped us as an organization.

Doug English: Outstanding. So that kind of goes and answers a question that I expect that our listeners would want to know, which is, is this sort of a legacy planning service, and what’s next for the CEO something that a credit union should pay for, or the executive? And, of course, that’s decided at the individual level, but based on what you just said, it would seem in a credit union’s interest to consider this for their leaders several years before retirement.

Maurice Smith: Doug, I agree with that. Here’s the reason why. Every official, every director of a credit union, or any organization, has a fiduciary responsibility to do what’s in the best interests of that organization. One of the fiduciary responsibilities that we have as corporate officers is what is called the duty of care, and courts measure the duty of care by what is called a reasonable person’s standard. What would a reasonable person do under the same circumstances? Would a reasonable board want its CEO to perform better? Would a reasonable board want the CEO to change seasons and not cast a negative shadow on the organization? Would a reasonable board want their organization to move through the normal transitions that occur with all organizations efficiently? If the answer is affirmative for those three questions, then a reasonable board would look for resources to help its organization navigate, pardon the pun, the challenges and the changes that’s going to occur at that organization.

What I failed to do and what I did not know should be contemplated in advance is to have a conversation with a board in thinking about the fiduciary responsibility of the directors. We as a CEO can sometimes rob our directors of that focus by not presenting to them the facts they need to make the most prudent decision. That’s on us when we do that. But our job is to help our directors make the best decisions for the organization.

Doug English: Outstanding. Keeping the strategic leaders focused on strategy is one of the things I learned from one of our other sessions. Is your board too tactical? Is your board ready to think about strategy? Well, if you’re putting tactical information in front of them, that’s what they’re going to think about and talk about. If you’re putting strategic information in front of them, then they’re going to think about strategy.

Maurice Smith: Yeah, I firmly believe that.

Anne Sample: Doug, what I was going to say is we find it happens—and that’s where board service has such a developmental side to it that folks don’t consider. But the notion of going from being the CEO to serving on a board puts you on the other side of the table and just creates a whole new dynamic, which is why getting that—it’s going to take 12 to 18 months for most people to get on a board, and so getting on a board while you’re a leader does give you, I think, the chance to bring those reflections in.

Doug English: So getting clear on what you want and how you want to make a difference. So I assume that’s a questionnaire, kind of introspective process of trying to figure out what you’re looking for and why it matters to you? Is that how that happens?

Maurice Smith: In many regards, it does. But this is a journey, and so half of my conversations with Patty has been, for me, like peeling an onion. As we have our conversations, I’ve learned a little bit about myself, and then there’s another layer, and I learn something else, and then there’s another layer. And I feel like I’m becoming a more competent person because I’m understanding things that I really haven’t had the time, nor have I stopped to focus on, about, okay, where am I going, what do I want to accomplish.

Many of my conversations with Patty have reminded me of dialogue I had with my father some 50-some years ago as he would talk to me about what do I want to accomplish in life, having chosen a career. How does the economy work? What are my responsibilities as an adult someday? So that reminded me, okay, early in my career, I had keen ideas on what kind of career I wanted to have, but then life happens, you find yourself working hard, you’re trying to build a resume, you’re trying to climb the corporate ladder. It’s been reflective and nostalgic, to some extent, to stop and think, “This is how I started. These were my intents.” And so now we’re trying to make sure this legacy that we’re going to chronicle matches what I hoped to have accomplished so many years ago.

Doug English: Those are good potatoes, right?

Maurice Smith: Good potatoes, indeed.

Doug English: So one of the first things I noticed that was apparent outside of the space between your ears was I noticed that you changed the look and feel of your LinkedIn profile. That was the first thing I saw as a result of this process. Tell us a little bit about some of the things that you changed as a result of going through this process.

Maurice Smith: Doug, it was actually more than just a change. In fact, prior to working with Navigate Forward, I wasn’t on LinkedIn. I had a LinkedIn site some years ago, and I was managing it in a very clumsy way, and it felt more like a burden than anything else, so I exited the platform. So Navigate Forward has an expert in the LinkedIn processes and management, and we’ve had a couple conversations and meetings, some private tutoring sessions, and I was able to come back onto the platform in a much more efficient, more professional way.

I have heard great feedback from folks who have connected to me, have talked about the profile that I have, the materials that I have presented, and the way that I have organized my information. I would not have figured that out on my own. This came about through the training that I have received. And so I have used that tool as a way to connect with some individuals I’ve lost contact with some time ago, and new folks have connected to me who have wares to sell sometimes, and sometimes they just want to network with me to understand my journey. And that’s been really quite rewarding.

Doug English: I thought it was beautifully done, because of many things, not only what it attracts, but what it repels. Right? It has a language that clearly says, “I’m a leader ready for board leadership. This is the kind of thing that I’ll be doing.” And I assume that’s probably the first thing that someone looks at when they’re considering you for board readiness. A lot of times, they probably go right to your LinkedIn profile. You’ve got it written in a way to attract the right group, as far as I can tell. Are there any tactical specifics you want to talk to about that?

Maurice Smith: That is due in large part to Patty, let me tell you this. I probably shudder to think about the first draft that I’d written that might be posted on LinkedIn. And in her gentle, professional way, Patty would slightly nudge me in the direction that I should go, how to use the right phrases, if you will, how to organize the information so it tells a compelling story, but also be brief enough to get the points across.

Because what I want to have individuals understand is that a season is changing for me for my occupation, but my interest in doing good in society, being a contributor, and also finding new ways to be productive, if you will, that has not changed. And LinkedIn—like reading a board bio or any other kind of materials that one might put out about themselves, that can be a one-dimensional platform. People who read it are not listening to my voice, so I feel like it needs to be very efficient so what they get out of it is truly the intent that I had in mind.

I did not know how to do that. That’s where having someone come along and help you, hold your hand and guide you along the way has been so productive. And so Navigate Forward has been—their expertise has been instrumental in helping me get my LinkedIn profile to the place where it is today.

Anne Sample: Doug, I’m thinking Patty might be the right person to talk to us about legacy planning and what it is, because you know what we have found is with leaders like Maurice that have so much humility and who have been nose to the grindstone, keeping their organizations running and been focused on the challenges right in front of them—I think Patty is the one who can really talk about kind of how we back up and start this work. Because, Maurice, I just remember from our very first conversation both how impressed I was by you, but how clear I was that one of the challenges was going to be helping you keep your humility and authenticity, but also be able to really bring yourself to life through some of the work that we do.

Patty Hamm: Thanks, Anne. Well, I think the—and you probably heard it from Maurice, is that this whole practice is about building a relationship and a partnership. And the hardest work is that beginning of working with the client on what are their expectations, what do they want, but that discovery piece of really going deep and what their history has been like in their career, what their values have driven, where they want to go, and putting that all together. So that can take a couple months, if not longer, because that’s the time that you really spend going deep. And then some of the things that we’ve talked about today are the tools that we develop that then become actionable.

But when we talk about legacy planning, there’s really two components that we think about. One is how do we help the CEO or the executive leave the organization well, so really working with them about what is that career legacy that’s so important to them, what has the organization given them, what have they given to the organization, how do you put a narrative around that, working with them on their timetable, if there are succession plans, to help in terms of that knowledge transfer, really partnering on that exiting in a very clear and positive way to the organization.

At the same time, we’re working on that what’s next, “How do I launch my future after I’m engaged as a CEO?” and that’s really, I think, the fun work about allowing the CEO to really think out of the box about where do I want to go with this, how do I want to spend my time, what’s really important to me, how do I go out there and do it.

Doug English: Interesting. So it goes from the self-reflective piece, with a good bit of fishing work on the part of Patty and Anne, to kind of help us get clarity on your own outcome and values and direction and service orientation. That’s what I’m hearing is step number one. And then step number two kind of gets into some of the more action items, like changing your LinkedIn profile, building a board bio.

And one of the things that you talked about in your last session that I took away was the power of your Rolodex, to use a dated concept, to sort of be connected to people that may have board opportunities that you hadn’t thought of prior to sort of repositioning yourself in your own mind as, “I’m a board leader now in this new part of my life, and I need to be sort of just still valuing the people as I valued them before, but maybe thinking of our connection in a way that may lead somewhere else.” Any comments around that?

Anne Sample: I think that’s true. I think one of the interesting things for Maurice that he might want to elaborate on is that—we talked a little bit about his focus on a board and wanting to go forward, but he’s got a larger kind of, “What’s my encore plan?” I think many in your audience might know that he’s a practicing attorney. So that’s going to be important for him to continue in his work contributing to nonprofits and organizations. Consulting is one of the things that he believes his skillset and interests will be put forward, and how does he go about that networking, in fact. So I think it’s—I just want to make sure we realize that the whole encore plan is based on the interests, and it might not just be one thing; it could be a number of things that the client pursues.

Maurice Smith: Indeed. In fact, Patty, many instances—just this last weekend, I worked with some colleagues, and the question that often arises is, “So you’re retiring soon. So what are you going to do?” And I said, “Well, perhaps it wouldn’t surprise you that I’m not going to sit home on the front porch and count the squirrels in my front yard, so I’m going to try to find some other things to do.” And so the way I framed it is my life is going to be divided into thirds, hopefully not quite that same precision. But my work with you, Patty, has helped me sort of understand, “Here are the things that are important to me.” And one is board service, because I do really believe in the societal value of organizations that come together to exercise a common enterprise. And over my career, I’ve served with as many as 32 different boards, from universities to foundations to think tanks to financial institutions. I think I can offer some experience there.

Second part of my life is I do want to continue practicing law. I practice law for nonprofits and religious organizations. I find it personally rewarding to me. The third part is my wife says we’re going to have fun whether I like it or not. And so part of my exploration with Patty is understanding, “So what do I want to do?”  Beyond all of that, that is not career or business related, how do I want to spend my time, and not just counting squirrels? So I feel like I’m into this new season with a pretty well-oiled plan about what I intend on doing.

Anne Sample: Doug, we’ve discovered the word “retirement” is such a fascinating word, because for people who are early in their career, it is—it just sounds like this compelling opportunity that involves everything from a beach to a golf course to—I mean, people have this idea of retirement and what age they want to retire when they build their financial plans. It’s got a whole different context early in career. Later in career, it actually can be a really scary word, because people are going from having led large organizations and going a hundred miles an hour and having a very full calendar and schedule and knowing what their purpose is to being terrified of what’s next.

Now, Maurice didn’t sound terrified when he called us, by the way. He just sounded like he thought he could use some help. But I have talked to people that truly do sound terrified, and their question is, “What am I going to do next?”  So the notion of legacy planning is rather than waiting to see how it goes and to see what fun your wife has planned or what you think is going to happen next, taking some time before you leave to really think it through so that there can be something pulling you forward, rather than thinking of it as the vast abyss that you don’t know what it looks like beyond that party and beyond your last day.

Maurice Smith: Well, Anne, my knees were shaking when I called. You just didn’t happen to see them.

Anne Sample: I couldn’t see them, Maurice. I guarantee that.

Maurice Smith: There is a fair amount of fear that I had in going into this conversation, into this season, but you all have helped ease those concerns, and I actually feel really confident about the next season. I know there will be twists and turns and things to explore as we go along, and that actually excites me. So it’s nice to have a plan on paper that we’ll be working hereafter.

Doug English: Maurice, how has the clarity that you have about this next step in your journey, how has it changed any of your activities? What are you doing new or what are you doing different than you did before you went through this process?

Maurice Smith: Very good question, Doug. One of the responsibilities of a CEO, I think any leader in any organization, is to cultivate talent in your organization. And so paying very close attention to how Patty and I started engaging our conversation and the nuances of the conversation, I’ve used those tools, I think, to sort of help further develop the talent in our organization.

So I’ve announced my retirement. It’s coming at the end of the year. The board is going through a search process. They’re going through internal candidates today. And leading up to this point, this process where we are today, I felt like it was my responsibility to ensure that there were valuable, qualified internal candidates vying for this position. Now, the board may decide to look outside, and they may choose outside, but my job is to make it difficult for them to go outside to find turnover, because these are folks who bought into this system, into this team, and to be honest, I feel a certain personal allegiance to them as well.

So my experience and my continued learning about leadership, preparing myself for the new season, feels like it’s analogous to the new season that my team is going to be going through, because they’re going to be getting a new CEO at some point, the new CEO is going to like to have new strategies and vision and ideas for the organization, the culture might shift a little bit. So I’m not the only one going through a new season, and so to the extent that I can learn how to navigate this transition more effectively, perhaps I can pass along a few nuggets of wisdom to my colleagues here and prepare them for the season that they’re about to enter into.

Doug English: Maurice, did I hear you say that you were going to use the tools of the legacy process to also help vet the internal candidates? Did I get that right, or did I get that wrong?

Maurice Smith: I’m using the tools to help prepare my colleagues here for the transition in leadership. The succession process is handled by the board of directors, and, I mean, they’re competent, battle-hardened experts in this field, so they’re doing what they need to do. But even folks here in our organization who are not candidates for the CEO role, they’re going to be affected by the transition, and so it’s probably helpful for them to think about what does their future look like and what do they want to envision for themselves and what might retirement look like for them, even though it may be a decade or so away.

Doug English: Very good. Excellent. Well, I think this has gone into areas that I didn’t anticipate, which I’m delighted for, for how this idea of getting clear on your after-work career and what that looks like and why it looks like that and how it dovetails with your personal values, how that can actually come back in and add value to your credit union leadership for many years prior to you actually leaving the organization. That’s a huge takeaway for me that I did not anticipate. With that said, I would ask, any final comments for our listeners on what they might do and what they might consider in this area that you would want them to know?

Maurice Smith: I suppose for each of us, no matter whether you are a rookie teller or a loan officer who just started a year or so ago, or you’ve been a veteran and been in this business for a long period of time, you understand that transitions occur in life and your organization. And I knew at some point, if I lived long enough, that retirement or a transition was going to occur. I would encourage my colleagues who are listening to this podcast to think about what does the next transition look like for you. Whether it’s a different employment, whether it’s retirement, whether it’s entrepreneurship or whatever that happens to be, what does that transition look like, and to be intentional about it.

Doug, I mentioned earlier issue spotting has been a problem that has led to failures we’ve made as an organization in the past in certain decisions, and so if you think about a transition in your life, whatever that happens to be, career or otherwise, take the time to find the right people to help you spot the issues before that transition begins.

Navigate Forward has been instrumental in helping me figure out, okay, these are the issues I should be concerned about, these are the blind spots that you have and you didn’t even know even existed, and here’s how you work your way through those. And so I would tell my colleagues that whatever you’re doing today, wherever your career happens to be at this point, there’s going to be a transition sooner or later. Now is the time to start preparing for that and getting the right people to help you spot your issues before that time comes.

Doug English: And to spot your opportunities too, right? Again, that’s a huge takeaway for me from this process, is just the internal filtering of thinking of yourself differently could cause you to maybe spend your time differently, record your conversations differently, just to filter your activities in a way that is aligned to your next step.

Maurice Smith: Absolutely. You might even—now, I’m not even sure if it’s in the strategic plan for Navigate Forward, but a product they provide to me might be a good product for boards of directors as they think about their season. So new directors come onto a board, and that’s a transition they have to navigate, new personalities, new talent, new individuals around the table. That changes the complexity of a board. All the people who are not even associated with the board or the CEO, they go through a transition as well. Our clients, our customers, members, they go through transitions. It feels to me that an astute CEO would recognize part of that and will make sure they have at his or her side the kind of people that are going to help them figure that out.

Anne Sample: Maurice, that’s really where a lot of these services—if you think about the origin and where they—really, they grew pretty organically around the notion of—I think where we enjoy doing work and we see our value add is helping people through transitions. And it started with career transitions, because that’s really the meat of what we do, is help people anytime they face a career transition, and what we discovered is getting onto a board is a transition, thinking about your retirement and your legacy is a transition. So I think your words of wisdom, whether it’s—it certainly doesn’t have to be with us, but I think the notion of planning and intentionality—because leaders like you are in big jobs with a lot of things coming at you, and having the courage to kind of hit the pause button long enough to think about what’s next and think about how to get yourself and your team really ready is the—to me, that would be the takeaway, Doug, is just making sure leaders are thinking that through. And I think credit union leaders are generally so dedicated, and also so humble, that thinking about their own future just isn’t something they’ve prioritized.

Maurice Smith: I agree.

Doug English: Well, Anne, Patty, Maurice, thank you so much for this wonderful content today. I’m sure this is going to help the leaders of the credit union movement to continue to be more and more successful. So thanks so much.

Maurice Smith: My pleasure.

Anne Sample: Thanks.

Patty Hamm: Thank you.

Doug English: That’s all the insider credit union knowledge we have for this episode. Are you enjoying the conversation? Be sure to subscribe and share your thoughts with other credit union leaders by leaving us a review. See you next time on C.U. on the Show.